On Wed, 13 Sep 2000, Larry Trask wrote:
[Moonhawk:] As to the main point re: nouns being more static than verbs -- I couldn't agree more. In fact, I'd go farther: linguistic societies (language/- culture dynamics) that excessively nounify are after control by fear.This is one of the most astounding statements I have ever seen. I don't know how many nouns counts as excessive in Moonhawk's eyes.
[Moonhawk] Thank you. More than zero. I 've already answered the fear and control.
[Larry][Moonhawk] Larry -- once more, as in years of lore, the speakers specifically of Algonkian languages say they can talk all day long and never utter a single noun. I usually take pains to point out that this is true in "daily talk" (social alpha level of my model), but of course not in teaching mode; but then they're earased. ;-) See my dialogue with Benji for the rest of the answer about recovering them or not.[Moonhawk:] Wow -- bingo! Indigenous epistemologies make an entrance for discussion's sake! What, indeed, would, say, an indigenous linguistics look like? Take away the "nouns" and you're really removing the verb's mandatoriness for X-number of NPs -- so take away pronouns as well, focusing on the dancing rather thab the dancers.Moonhawk, are you telling us that there exist languages in which verbs *routinely* -- in all or most modes of discourse, and not just in intimate contexts -- occur without NPs, without pronouns, and without pronominal agreement markers? If so, let's hear about these languages.
You've seen me pass along this claim at least a score of times. If you choose to dismiss it out of hand because it flies in the face of the work of past centuries of dedicated, honest, European researchers of these languages, fine. I'm sure you represent a great many of the people who may still be reading this discussion. But I was one of those researchers -- and because of the help I've gotten from Native academics since I left the res, I see how UCLA's fascination with Chomsky failed to adequately train me for my encounter with Native American languages -- and structuralism in general, I might add. Of course, my area of specialty was African languages then. Duh! Amazing how little things, like avoiding going to VietNam, add up to bigger, unexpected things. How could it train me for languages that shuffle 80 kinesthetic/relationship roots to create new words on the fly -- more verby than nouny, where one word can also be a full sentence -- especially when linguists dismiss out of hand the native participants claims of what it's like from the inside, especially when they can speak both languages and we can't? But we've been here before.
[Larry][Moonhawk] Oh, you caught me! I was thinking my favorite languages but didn't say so, leading you to the erroneous conclusion that I was generalizing to indigenous qua indigenous. My bad![Moonhawk:] Now, given that worldview, which is also inclusive rather than exclusive of the rest of Nature, what would "linguistics" look like? For sure it would have a larger-than-human focus on its subject matter, language, showing what we share with other Life as well as what is unique about us.Why would it do this? I know that you personally, Moonhawk, would like to define 'language' as something shared by all or most living creatures, and to define 'linguistics' accordingly. But why does it follow that any linguistics developed in a non-European language would automatically follow this line?
[Larry] In fact, every linguistic traditon known to me, apart from the modern European one, focuses exclusively on the one or two languages of greatest importance to the investigators -- Greek, Chinese, classical Arabic, or whatever -- and pays no attention at all to anything else. Why would an indigenous North American linguistic tradition, if there were one, necessarily be any different? If the Hopi, for example, had ever developed a linguistic tradition, why would they have bothered their heads about anything other than Hopi?[Moonhawk] Well, Larry, I guess the only way to say it is that I've been present at discussions by American Natives where they did comparative etymologies on their languages ... and you haven't seen such a nascent Native American linguistics in action. You think I make this stuff up, don't you?! But of course, I rarely search my databanks for examples until forced to in one way or another. My answer just above anticipates [snip] below on evidentials.
[Larry][Moonhawk] Again, old duelling terrain for us, my more than worthy adversary. Some people justifiably feel that Western Science has been an obstacle to living harmoniously with the eco-systems of Earth, living without polluted air and waters, and that it was the Endarkenment's left-brain-only principles, torturing Nature's secrets from her (to steal from Bacon, I think), with little regard for seventh-generation consequences (what we quaintly call holistic or comprehensive thinking), that followed slavishly have brought us to the brink of ecological crises.[Moonhawk:] Is "science" (of language or anything else) "universal or culture-bound?Universal -- even if, like every discipline, held back on occasion by the culture-bound prejudices of its investigators.[Moonhawk:] If no, does it mean some cultures are more 'science-compatible' than others?"No; not in principle. Of course, if your society is in thrall to a powerful pope who threatens to burn you alive if you practice certain kinds of science, that could be an obstacle.
The part as an object, stripped of its environmental relationships and the whole, then seen that way -- that's our still current cultural/cognitive heritage. Holistic (respect) thinking and real dialogue tend to foster actions imbued with wisdom.
[Larry][Moonhawk] Sorry, Larry, Benji's got a better phenomenological handle on this than you seem to. The map is not the territory. Nouns do not exist in languages - only in the minds of linguists (and tortured students) who in after the fact analysis proclaim that in a particular utterance, x was used as a noun, verb, adjective, adverb, preposition, etc., using the professional lens of what parts of speech Latin had, as the base, and then all the flotsam and jetsam that don't fit neatly into the boxes.[Moonhawk:] So provocative! If we delete all our nouns from linguistics, is there anything coherent left?This is a category error. Nouns are not a property of linguistics, but of languages -- probably of all languages, though there are debates about a few interesting cases. You might as well ask about the consequences of removing vowels from linguistics, or of removing morphemes from linguistics.
[Larry][Moonhawk] My speaker-friends reject that assumption, tempting tho it is to those of our training.[Moonhawk:] Does our nominophilia rule our thinking about language? Are "root-y" language/culture groups just left out of the loop if they don't value talking in nouns?No. Probably all languages have nouns, though the noun/verb contrast is rather elusive in some languages, and perhaps even absent, according to some observers. But the low discourse frequency of nouns reported for some languages is probably only possible in discussing topics which are very familiar to listeners.
[Larry] Can a speaker of one of these noun-poor languages adequately explain the current oil crisis, or the workings of a car engine, or the etymology of 'southpaw', without using nouns?[Moonhawk] Yes, I'm assured they can, just like speakers of all human languages. But let's factor in, as well, that the 80-root structure is generally used culturally in a generalist way, on my alpha social level, to allow intelligibility for children and elders alike.
So where do you go to by granting that? Have we reached the merest possibility that such a premise could be valid, as with Benji, for even discussion's sake?
[Larry][Moonhawk] Yes, old terrain again. And I should've used left-brain for parallelism. I'm not sure how to characterize without offending you the thinking style which Native Americans find offensive -- nay, childish, if truth be known. And I was using it before po-mo reared its ugly head.[Moonhawk:] What does "science" mean? Diving for roots it means "knowing," but in cultural terms it describes a phase of European intellectual rigor which rewards linear thinking over whole-brain thinking.Oh, lord -- that awful word 'linear' again. Please, can we agree to ban 'linear' except in its mathematical senses? When used as a po-mo term of abuse, as here, it has no identifiable meaning.
[Larry] Moonhawk, are you seriously suggesting that Albert Einstein, while following the wonderfully imaginative thinking that led to special relativity, was merely engaging in some third-rate 'linear' variety of thinking, and carelessly failing to use most of his brain? Or that Richard Feynman was doing the same when he dreamed up Feynman diagrams? Or the founders of that fabulously counter-intuitive system quantum mechanics? Really? Which "non-linear" thinkers have come up with more impressive achievements than these? Or even equally impressive?[Moonhawk] How Traskian of you to anticipate my own examples of brilliant non-linear thinkers, who were aided in no small part by non-euclidean geometries in their thinking, and try misguidedly to use them against me, much like Malotki treats Whorf. They broke out of left-brain-only entailments and made people see things new ways. This is what I mean about physics encountering meaning only in the 20th-century, once new thinking tools were recognized. But then, aren't you the one who proclaimed publicly that "analysis" always includes "synthesis"? We must work on totally different student projects! ;-)
[Larry] [Moonhawk:] Seen that way, there is[Moonhawk] Of course -- in seeing language as symbolic patternment! Why do you think Humboldt founded this discipline in the first place? Just to trace the family relatioships of Indo-European languages?! It was the translation of Sanskrit, and Panini's linguists, that rescued us from the clutches of Greek and Roman musings, and put us on a sound footing, as it were. Is your claim then that NONE of the aforementioned linguists owe ANYTHING to Panini? Silly argument.[Moonhawk:] no science except the true Western European version; everyone else is just on the way to being Science. Funny that linguists fell for this, given the fact that our brand of science comes from Panini in India.Really? All of linguistics descends from the ancient Indian grammarians? Boas, Saussure, Sapir, Jespersen, Trubetzkoy, Jakobson, Bloomfield, Weinreich, Chomsky, Labov, Lakoff, and the rest -- just following in Panini's footsteps, eh?
[Larry][Moonhawk] Yes, I believed the same like a good culture-bearer until I finally learned the language over many years and found my culture's admonitions full of its own susperstition. I can only talk from my own personal experience with it, which belies all your statements made from no experience. There's nothing to believe in, Larry -- ya just gotta do the math and allow for occasional coincidences which are meaningful to you and you alone. If you won't take the years to learn it, there's nothing I can or even want to say to try to convince you of anything. You have your ontology, I have mine. Your gross mischaracterization of what Jung characterized as "the psychology of the ancients" should be marked with an evidential meaning, "so its said, but not from personal experience."[Moonhawk:] But what about sciences, such as astrology,Astrology is not a science. It's only a belief system, like Methodism or Buddhism -- or, for that matter, like Christian Science.[Moonhawk:] whose principles of observation, correlation, and prediction, along with the use of math,These features are not enough to make a science. You gotta have some results, some successes. Astrology doesn't have any. Those hapless punters in Las Vegas, who record the numbers coming up on roulette wheels in order to predict what numbers will come up next, exhibit all the characteristics just named -- yet their guesses do not constitute science.
[Larry][Moonhawk] Right, and philology never gave birth to anything but ... well, philology. ;-) That's okay if you wish to think so, and you probably have lots of readers cheering you on! ["Yay!" goes the crowd.][Moonhawk:] gave rise to our version of scienceNo, it didn't. There is no sense in which physics or any other science descends from astrology. You might argue that the beginnings of astronomy were somewhat tied up with astrology, for obvious reasons, but that's it. Astrology has never given rise to anything except more astrology.
[Larry][Moonhawk] Yes -- and they got Humboldtian linguistics training. Of course all the high-falutin' words from our French vocabulary tends to mask the fact. All systems of public control in English are dominated by French, not Germanic, vocabulary -- keeps the riff-raff out! ;-)[Moonhawk:] (Newton and other founding fathers were astrologers)No doubt. So what? Franz Boas and Edward Sapir were born and raised in Germany. Does it follow that American linguistics is specifically German in its outlook?
[Larry][Moonhawk] I never made a living at it, nor even contributed to that of others. I don't do charts any longer, but that's no sign of recantation, oh fearsome Inquisitor. I learned what I learned and will not be scared away from my knowledge by unfounded ridicule by my colleague.[Moonhawk:] yet is disdained and called "unscientific"?For the very best of reasons: it is a hopeless farrago of nonsense, and it doesn't work. It has no achievements to its name, beyond providing any number of astrologers with a comfortable living.
[Larry][Moonhawk] Yes, of course, Larry -- but you convenient forgot to include the peculiarities found in the American Indian languages under discussion which are not found in the many, many other languages around the world -- the combination of no nouns and no copulas, which makes hash out of Western logic, Western monocausal deterministic science, etc. The question is: with that much work to create suitable grammatical fictions called nouns, is it really *compatible* with such a nouny notion of "science"? Or would that distort too much the insights that flow from these languages the way quantum sights spring from non-euclidean mathematics?[Moonhawk:] What of cultures whose languages have no equals-sign copulas and don't value nouns -- are they hopelessly beyond the pale of ever even potentially becoming "scientific"No. Speakers of any language can express and discuss physics, or linguistics, or anything else, in their language if they want to. Of course, if they haven't done this before, then some work will have to be done first. But such projects are carried out routinely these days. Speakers of Finnish, Basque, and other languages have successfully engineered those languages to enable any subject to be adequately handled.
[Larry][Moonhawk] Pass -- I'll stand on my hypothetical for now.[Moonhawk:] or do they have their own version of "science" which we have completely overlooked for centuries because of our True Science lens?They do not. If you disagree, then please present some examples of successful science outside what you call "True Science". Successful, I mean, in more than making its believers feel good.
[Larry][Moonhawk:] Are only thingy languages science-compatible for our brand of 'thing'uistics?No. I find it rather distressing that somebody should be suggesting, now, that linguistics, or physics, or anything, can only be adequately expressed and discussed in languages of certain structural types. To be blunt, I had thought this was a Eurocentric prejudice which went out the window decades ago.
[Moonhawk] Well, if you can explain to me the quantum leap from in-"compatible" to impossible, and accusing me of all people of Eurocentric prejudice because of it, I'll eat my hat.